User talk:SIngli6
The Catspaw Dagger This episode also comes the closest to offering a definitive answer for who sent the Catspaw Assassin. In "Lord Snow", Littlefinger claimed the Valyrian steel dagger used in the attempt on Bran's life once belonged to him, but that he subsequently lost the dagger to Tyrion Lannister after betting on Jaime Lannister for a tourney (Ser Loras unseated him). Tyrion denied sending the assassin, but '''subsequent episodes left it ambiguous as to whether he denied that the dagger was his at all or whether he simply denied sending the assassin whilst confirming that the dagger was indeed his'. This episode confirms that Littlefinger was indeed lying about Tyrion ever possessing the knife. As the show has given no indication of anybody else besides Littlefinger having ever owned the knife before the attempt on Bran's life, it is must be assumed that Littlefinger was the one to arm the Catspaw, though it is highly implausible.'' ---- >This is gibberish. Add it back to the episode article one more time and I'll permanently block you from the wiki. This is your only warning. I would like to discuss it, here...to drill into you how absurd this is. NO. NO, they did not give a "definitive" answer, or any answer for that matter... ....Littlefinger in the TV show lied that he lost the knife to Tyrion...otherwise, the TV writers just plain abandoned that as a plot point, as they did so much else. What you posted is fan-fiction. Bad fan-fiction.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 01:00, September 10, 2017 (UTC) : Alright. First off, as I mentioned on your talk page, I am not - repeat not - trying to justify any decision D&D have made. I am simply trying to ascertain their intention and/or conceive of the most logical conclusion from all the variables presented'' in the show alone''. In the episode The Wolf and the Lion, when Tyrion is asked point blank about the assassination attempt (as in the books), all we hear him say is "What sort of imbecile arms an assassin with his own blade?". We hear nothing else on the matter, and the fact that Tyrion never mentions the dagger to Littlefinger (or even accuses Littlefinger of lying when talking to Catelyn), left the whole situation even more ambiguous than it was in the first book. : Now the reasons for this writing decision are probably as simple as 'they thought they could explain all that later and then just never got back round to it', but that does not mean this wiki is suddenly exempt from bothering to conceive in-universe explanations for things. Consider the policy about the Cersei/Jaime Sept sex scene, or Arya's behaviour being at least in part a ruse. These are things that were miscalculations on set that the wiki made a conscious decision to narratively justify for the simple purpose of not just saying in summaries 'then Jaime rapes Cersei for some reason' or 'Arya bizarrely threatens to cut Sansa's face off'. As much as you and I may hate a writing or editing decision, a veneer of professionalism and consideration for those who may still appreciate the narrative beats of this tale compels us to be diplomatic every now and then. And that is my logic behind my suggestion that Littlefinger hired the Catspaw. Indeed, if the novels did not exist, that is probably the conclusion you would have come to. : And that's not even getting into what D&D were thinking when they brought the dagger back. We're they intending to finally outline the book explanation for the dagger using Bran as a potential catalyst, or was that trial scene supposed to be a massive reveal that he sent the Catspaw? The moment Arya says it was always Littlefinger's dagger is played as a major reveal, and it is our job to determine what that reveal is most likely to be. I believe it is the new explanation that Littlefinger sent the Catspaw for one simple reason; Arya say it was always his.' She makes out as though the lie was not that he named the wrong person as the subsequent owner of the dagger, but that he named anyone at all.' And yes, you can say that she made a very poor choice of words (wouldn't be the first time in this show), but honestly that sounds more like honeypotting at that point, especially as the alternative explanation is based on a payoff that was never delivered, but arguably a set-up that was never delivered. Compare with Tysha, where the set-up was rather perfectly delivered, but never paid off. Is it the policy of this wiki to say that Tysha really was a maiden? No, because nothing in the show has suggested that yet. : Apologies for any spelling errors. I'm writing this on an overheating computer and I am quite tired. : Edit: I made an error by saying Arya says 'always', though there is still the inference of an 'always' by the simple fact Arya does not mention anyone else owning the dagger in the same breath.--SIngli6 (talk) 03:07, September 13, 2017 (UTC) This is regarding The Dragon and the Wolf page, and my suggested additions to the Winterfell section regarding Littlefinger. You seem to take particular umbrage to them for the reason that they do not adequately explain the situation with the Catspaw . I want to clarify right now that I am not saying that it does explain the situation... not even close. When I said it 'came the closest to explaining it', I was very much talking comparatively. But this is a wiki that is supposed to offer up-to-date and as thorough a source of information as possible. This is not about trying to justify any error D&D may have committed in their writing (and we both know they've made quite a few mistakes), but about trying to perceive their intention. At the very least, there has been exceptionally little attention paid to the implications of the Catspaw Dagger's reintroduction to the show on this wiki, when objectively speaking we have been given more information about the dagger this season (like definitive proof in the TV-canon that Littlefinger lied about the dagger being Tyrion's) that needs to be incorporated. I am not exactly sure what your motivations are for the suppression, but even if you do not approve of my particular edits someone needs to write'' something'' about it. The moment the dagger is revealed to have always been Littlefinger's is treated as a major dramatic reveal, and as such it should be treated as such. You don't have to treat it well - this wiki is rather infested with passive aggressive vitriol from bookwalkers and show fanatics, so it's hardly going to be out of order to harp on one more mistake the writers have made - but it should be treated.--SIngli6 (talk) 13:41, September 10, 2017 (UTC)SIngli6 Still curious on the state of the Catspaw dagger. Something needs to be written about it. If you're so adamant that the possibility that Littlefinger is not even speculated on, what is to be the official explanation for Arya saying 'It's always been yours'?--SIngli6 (talk) 02:25, September 17, 2017 (UTC) First, "comes closest to giving a definitive answer"...that shouldn't use "definitive" to begin with. At best, "speculative". Littlefinger later said it was his, but he lost it in a bet. In the books, the lie was that he said he lost it to Tyrion, when really he lost it to Robert. Without anyone's knowledge, Joffrey then grabbed it from the royal baggage train and tried to have Bran killed with it. NO, subsequent episodes weren't coy about whether Littlefinger directly ordered the Catspaw or not: HOW could he, he was still in King's Landing and nowhere near Winterfell. Raven letters don't travel remotely fast enough for him to react to that. Even in "the TV continuity", no, they never tried to imply that Littlefinger ORDERED Bran's assassination. This is gibberish. "I am trying to ascertain their intention"...D&D had no intention. That was our mistake. Assuming that sitting down at their desks, they thought of "in-universe reasons" for things, and we just have to parse it out. The reality is that they just plain forgot about the question of "who sent the Catspaw Assassin", and didn't come up with an "in-TV universe" alternative explanation for it. ...keeping this in mind, I sort of think the viewer is left ot assume Cersei or Jaime ordered him to try to finish the job. But there is no in-universe explanation. D&D didn't bother with one. "Now the reasons for this writing decision are probably as simple as 'they thought they could explain all that later and then just never got back round to it', but that does not mean this wiki is suddenly exempt from bothering to conceive in-universe explanations for things." Yes. And the in-universe reason most prominent is just "Cersei and Jaime orderd him"....how did you get to "Littlefinger must have ordered it"? When he wasn't in Winterfell and couldn't plausibly have had time to react to Bran's fall? The point I'm trying to get to, and thank you for your patience - really, reading through your list here this wasn't an idle change: yes, coming up with an answer on our own for "the wiki continuity", why are you arguing it's Littlefinger, and not Joffrey, Cersei, or Jaime? Because Arya says "that was always his dagger?" in an off-hand remark? That was never presented as a connection we were supposed to make, and Arya isn't exactly an objective source - she wasn't there. Deciding factor: Bran does not mention it in the objective list of crimes Littlefinger committed against the Starks, which he learned with psychic/magic knowledge. If it was supposed to be Littlefinger, it would have been mentioned then - so points against that.--The Dragon Demands (talk) 20:02, September 19, 2017 (UTC) The use of the word 'definitive' was misleading on my part. I apologise. I should clarify that when I suggested the show was being coy about something, I wasn't saying whether it was being coy about the possibility Littlefinger ordered the assassination. I was saying it was being coy about whether he actually did lie at all ''about the dagger or whether he did in fact provide some level of misdirection. The reason I said that was because there was never a point in the show where Tyrion outright denied it was him. '''Indeed, my point was this was the episode to confirm it was a lie.' I then used that opportunity to ponder the implications of this revelation. I think you may have thought I meant Littlefinger when I was talking about a character not confirming or denying ownership of the knife when I meant Tyrion. The reason I suggested it was Littlefinger and not Cersei or Jaime might have to do with our slightly different interpretations of the thought processes of D&D. You believe them to be Doylist incompetants who think solely in terms of what will garner the highest ratings. I believe they are Watsonian incompetants who forget details of their own story and reshape it according to what they think works best dramatically. The reason I believe this is because I think the psychology of humans compells them to always justify and lionise themselves, and because if they looking at this story from a purely Doylist perspective I don't believe they would have bothered to reintroduce the dagger in the first place. It just draws unneccesary attention to a plot thread casual viewers honestly may have forgotten. As such, I observe the elements of the story they emphasise pertaining to the dagger (Who did it belong to?, Who hired the Catspaw?, etc.) and then speculate based on those insinuations. It is the use of this technique that formed the logical basis for this wiki's criticism of the Wight Hunt rescue. While there was indeed room to speculate that we were seeing more than one day (or at least Alan Taylor said he tried to leave room for speculation), the way the rescue is directed and staged strongly suggests the less logically excusable explanation. In the same way, Cersei, Jaime, and Joffrey being the one to hire the Catspaw is more logical, but there is less on-screen implication for that than the possibility Littlefinger is somehow responsible. At any rate, I've read a few reviews where people have thought this was the revelation, and that at the very least indicates that moment with Arya did feel significant. As for how Littlefinger could send the Catspaw so quickly after Bran's death, my answer is that the assassin was headed there long before the fall. It was merely a happy coincidence that Bran fell (a fact the Catspaw could have easily learnt on his way there). I know, I know, you'll probably say that's absurd fanfiction, but based on how events unfold it does make an odd sort of sense... like the possibility Euron was the one to burn down the Mereenese fleet. Ultimately, you're the one who has the final say here (as one of the Triarch and such), but I strongly recommend you either let me, or you yourself, create a section devoted to this mystery where this possibility, along with more the logical possibilities of Joffrey, Jaime, or Cersei hiring the Catspaw, are explored and outlined. As a middle-ground the possibility that Cersei hired the Catspaw is the one to consider "canon" for the moment, as there is a scene in Lord Snow between Cersei and Jaime that has them arguing over Jaime's actions and Cersei worrying explicitly about the child saying something. This could be them still regrouping over pushing Bran out the window, but as much time had transpired between that action and them getting back to King's Landing, Cersei having renewed frustration over the whole debacle could be her frustration at the failed assassination. Just spit-balling there, but still, the time has come, with this definitive revelation that Littlefinger lied about the dagger, to explore answers. Maybe, gods willing, next season Bran might have a scene with Jaime where he says that he knows Jaime or Cersei sent the assassin and we can rest easy with at least some explanation, but until then, the question should be given some type of temp answer (or a selection of them). SIngli6 (talk) 02:25, September 20, 2017 (UTC) :You think Baelish hired the catspaw to kill Bran... for no reason? - 07:04, September 20, 2017 (UTC) :I believe he wanted to give the Starks extra incentive to go south. A letter claiming the Lannisters are responsible is one thing, a mysterious Valyrian dagger being wielded by a commoner to kill the second in line to the family name is another. SIngli6 (talk) 07:16, September 20, 2017 (UTC) ::That's nonsensical. Why would Baelish arm the assassin with his own dagger if he was trying to frame the Lannisters? What, you think he was just hoping that people would assume such a rare, expensive weapon could only belong to the Lannisters? What was he hoping the Starks would think... that the Lannisters rocked up to Winterfell, randomly paid some cut-throat to murder their second-born son for no reason whatsoever... for shits and giggles? Why? Why Bran specifically? Not to mention the dagger was only discovered because the catspaw failed and was killed - 09:22, September 20, 2017 (UTC) ::It is nonsensical, and a dangerous risk to boot. But after season 7's finale I think that is the explanation the show is leaning towards. I should emphasise I don't like this explanation. I think it is stupid for the very reasons you have just presented. However, one explanation could be that Littlefinger was covering all eventualities. If the Catspaw is successful, there's an explained murder that the Starks investigate. With Lysa's letter of accusation, the Starks would strongly consider the possibility it was somehow connected to Jon Arryn's death and therefore that the Lannisters were somehow responsible. If the Catspaw is unsuccesful, the dagger makes the Starks believe the hit is still somehow connected to the Lannisters, which would be confirmed when they went down to King's Landing and heard Baelish's explanation, which would incorporate the dagger having been his at one point. Also, remember that in the TV show there may never have been a bet with anyone. Robert's name never comes up in regards to the dagger, so assuming more would be based on potentially inaccurate information. It makes no sense, but then there have been more absurd leaps on the part of the writers before. SIngli6 (talk) 10:10, September 20, 2017 (UTC) :::The Starks would assume that a random thug murdering their ten year old son was connected to Jon Arryn's death? Why? Why would they? - 10:33, September 20, 2017 (UTC) :::Simple. Because the Lannisters were around (and or would have just left) when it happened, and because that's pretty much exactly how they end up reacting anyway when a similar attempt was made on Bran's life. Come to think of it, I did always find it strange how Littlefinger thought a simple letter would be enough to get a giant conflict going. Also, why (and this is a question for both film and book) did Littlefinger risk losing the trust of Ned and Catelyn by lying about something that only might have resulted in Tyrion being captured and being taken to the abode of a crazy person? The more I think about it the more I'm beginning to despise this sodding dagger. ::::No, that's not a remotely apt comparison. The cutthroat tried to kill Bran on his deathbed, having just fallen from the tower under dubious circumstances... this raised the suspicions of the Starks, who correctly guessed that Bran had been pushed, and someone was now trying to finish the job. I'm sorry, but your theory is utterly unfeasible. - 13:57, September 20, 2017 (UTC) ::::Yes, but the culprits the Starks first came to were the Lannisters. If some random man killed Bran a week or so after a letter warning of treachery by the Lannisters, I do not think it would have been too much of a stretch for the Starks to think the two events were connected. When Ned Stark went down to King's Landing, dagger or no, Littlefinger could whisper into Ned's ear about possible connections. But fair enough you saying its too absurd, because it is, but what I am trying to communicate here is that something needs to be written about all this on the relevant pages. The show has finally confirmed that Littlefinger lied in Lord Snow, and there should be a section discussing what this means for the attempt on Bran's life. SIngli6 (talk) 07:28, September 23, 2017 (UTC)